Drivers are unhappy about stopping distances on bumps, tracks and slippery surfaces.
Dozens of owners of the current third generation Toyota Prius models have filled complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about the alleged brake failures they have experienced.
The Office of Defects Investigation has at least 33 complaints that we are aware of from Prius owners alleging a problem or safety defect, often about the design or performance of the braking system, which recharges the battery when the Prius decelerates.
Some owners describe this as unintended acceleration, but a review of the complaints by TheDetroitBureau.com leads me to think that this is an issue about how the braking system is calibrated. Whether this is a safety related defect is ultimately up to NHTSA to decide. The safety agency is authorized to order manufacturers to recall and repair vehicles when ODI investigations indicate that they contain serious safety defects in their design, construction, or performance.
For Toyota, it is another owner satisfaction or quality issue, at a minimum, coming from its most advanced technology vehicle at a time when Toyota is under attack for its handling of safety matters.
Braking performance issues?
In the case of the Prius brakes, it appears that the transition from regenerative braking to hydraulic braking is not transparent to drivers. Under certain conditions, the driver needs to press harder on the brake pedal to obtain the same stopping performance that the regenerative system working in conjunction with the hydraulic brakes initially provides. Drivers are clearly upset by longer than expected stopping distances when the antilock system shuts off the regenerative brakes.
“What I, and others have been experiencing, is certainly not “runaway acceleration” or anything to do with pressing the gas pedal,” Robert Becker, an unhappy owner of a 2010 Prius, told TDB.
“But rather the loss of braking power or braking momentum when hitting a pothole, manhole cover, or the like. This requires the driver to press down again harder on the brakes to slow or stop the car,” Becker says.
Becker’s complaint is typical of others that ODI is tracking from owner communications on its Auto Safety Hotline. However, the existence of complaints does not mean the government will ultimately pursue the matter. The next steps would be to open up a preliminary investigation, which could be followed by an engineering analysis, which could lead to a recall. Neither have been initiated by NHTSA thus far.
Here is another Prius driver filing: “There have been several incidents in which my car seemed to surge forward while I was in the process of braking and hit a bump, railroad tracks or pothole. Initially, I convinced myself I must have been letting up on the brake when I hit the bump, but when this same thing happened three days ago on slippery, icy roads, I knew for 100% certain I had not let up on the brake. My car surged as I was slowly pulling up to a stop sign and gently braking. I came very close to hitting the car in front of me, had to push down on the brakes very hard, which activated the abs.”
I think what is going on is a combination of design/calibration choices and the compounding effects, forgive the pun, of the low rolling resistance tires, suspension settings and perhaps vehicle weight.
The Prius is arguably Toyota’s strongest image vehicle, dominating the hybrid segment as the best seller with more than 1 million in sales to date, and disproving other automakers’ contentions that Japanese companies only copied instead of innovating.
A Toyota spokesperson initially told TDB that he was unaware of the issue, but Toyota quickly supplied the following statement: “We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s) of our investigation and subsequent actions.”
NHTSA would only confirm that no recall or formal investigation is underway. The ODI complaints are a matter of public record, though.
Fatal for Pedestrians?
Nonetheless, an internal NHTSA memo says: “It appears that when you hit a bump, the regenerative braking (front wheels only) cuts out, and there is a short delay until the friction braking kicks in. This results in loss of braking, which is experienced as acceleration (due to sudden end of deceleration from braking). Net impact is still a loss of braking/ increase in stopping distance. This could be fatal for pedestrians — it happens when approaching stop lights if you hit a pothole.”
Toyota is in the midst of huge recalls involving floor mats and accelerator pedals (3.8 million vehicles) and rusty Tundra frames (+100,000), among others; and it faces lawsuits alleging the withholding of evidence in safety investigations, as well as new charges of unintended acceleration, and stalling in some of its most popular models.
Toyota’s worst year for recalls, ever
So far this year, Toyota has said it will recall a total of 4.8 million vehicles in the United States, four times more than in any previous year. It recalled 1.1 million vehicles in 2004.
It is difficult, though, to attribute the Toyota brand sales decline in the U.S. – off 24% year-to-date, about the same as industry results — to a damaged reputation, in spite of much self-serving media and analyst commentary claiming such.
However, the longer safety and customer satisfaction matters remain under media and government scrutiny, the more serious the potential consequences. The company announced last week the retirement of its long time group vice president of environmental and public affairs, which could be coincidental or not.
The dealership that sold Becker the car recommended that a Toyota field technician check on his complaint. The technician, according to Becker, acknowledged the condition, but stopped short of characterizing it as a safety issue.
While he initially was looking for a fix for the problem, Becker now wants a full refund of the purchase price of the vehicle, something the company is unwilling to do thus far.
“It makes me question Toyota’s commitment to customer service and safety,” Becker says.
The sounds are many and varied but they occur both when you depress the brake pedal and when you release the brake pedal. One of the more pronounced sounds is a series of snaps or pops, slways three or four in a row, when you release the brake pedal.
To be honest, you would have to drive the car to really appreciate all the sounds, some of which seem to come from the front of the car and some of which seem to come from the back of the car.
After four days at the dealership, they have just called and they claim that the car is fixed. I sincerely hope that they are right but I will reserve judgment until I have driven the car.
However, I certainly hope that they have gotten rid of all the weird sounds. That will make my conscience feel far better to be able to dispose of the Prius with it supposedly fixed rather than getting rid of it like it was.
Anyway, this will be my one and only hybrid car. I have learned my lesson. I also will not be buying any more Toyotas. I’ve learned my lesson there, too.
tjw your attitude says it all ie no amount of explanation will change your mind because you are convinced the problem is because the car is a hybrid or a Toyota.
You have made up your mind to dispose of the car regardless if its fixed or not as you plainly state.
Some of the weird sounds you mention may be normal,have you ever read the owners manual? or talked with the dealer.The Prius has components other cars do not have.Some of these are activated while the ICE is not running and can plainly be heard inside the passenger compartment.
Even the ABS system on any car will make a noise when activated.
The Prius has to have electrically driven ancillarys which can make noise’s because the ICE normally used to drive them (as in a conventional car) is switched off part of the time,its just a necessary evil.
A full electric vehicle will have the same problem.
Your car may have a real problem but I know from experience the Prius is a different animal and needs to be understood by the user.
Its a shame you are not willing to be more flexible and learn the technology because its the immediate future.
I have been driving since 1951 and have driven and owned literally dozens of vehicles over the past 58 years. I am also a classic car collector so I would consider myself to be quite a bit more knowledgeabe about cars than most.
There is no doubt that the brakes on my Prius havde not been right since the dealer replaced the actuator assembly (including doing a complete power drop and computer reset along with replacing the brake fluid).
Anyone with any mechanical knowledge would know that the sounds coming from my brakes were not right, but the service manager at the dealership where I bought my Toyota personally told me that all the sounds were normal. I made three trips to this dealership regarding issues with the brakes and they kept the car overnight on two of those occasions.
At considerable inconvenience, I took the car to another Toyota dealership and their shop foreman rode with me and quickly said that the noises were not at all normal. They kept my car four days. The car is now better but, in my opinion, still is not completely right.
The Prius is a brilliantly conceived car and up until this problem I loved the car and feel that I was personally responsible for several friends also buying a Prius.
However, after this experience, I am now, after very careful consideration, convinced that owning a highly sophisticated and complicated hybrid car was not one of my smarter moves.
Toyota aggravated this problem, too, by the fact that I was left afoot for eight days out of a 30 day period with no offer whatsoever of a loaner vehicle. (I did succeed in getting Toyota national customer service to reimburse me for one day of car rental expense over that period.)
One of the main reasons that I am going to dispose of my Prius is that I don’t like the fact that only a Toyota dealer can work on it.
Even though my car is still under factory warranty, I checked into having an independent garage see if they could fix the problem. However, I quickly found out that this really was not an option.
The independent Toyota shop that I once used for one of my Lexuses told me that the ongoing maintenance issues on hybrid cars will lead a lot of people to the same decision that I have reached. The independent garages just aren’t equipped to service hybrids like the Prius.
I could keep taking my Prius back to the second Toyota dealership, but I’m not sure they could do any better on the brakes if I took it back again. Plus it is a big hassle to have to drive the great distance to the other dealership.
As they say, I loved the car, but I don’t like the fact that only a Toyota dealer can work on it if you have a serious problem and I also don’t like the way Toyota national customer service reacted when I tried to get them to help me with this problem.
tjw I can match your record of car collecting having owned some 175 cars since the fifties,most of them unusual designs or high tech for the period.I have found the key to happy ownership is knowledge of the particular make.
This enables me to have an intelligent conversation with the service manager and prevents confusion and misunderstanding.I would never dream of accepting the car without a full account of what they did and I don’t mean a paper copy.
I think you will find any make you buy that has a problem will have to be serviced by that particular dealer to uphold the warranty so your concept this is only a Toyota policy is untrue.
Independent service departments will work on hybrids regardless of what you have been told, its a matter of staying in business.They adapted over the years to electronics in cars and they will adapt to hybrids.
The Prius is no great mystery as there are numerous hackers who have modified It,case in point is the plug in model thats available now
It sounds to me like after replacing the actuator they didn’t get all the air out of the system.
Have you actually studied the brake system and understood the workings and what can produce a noise? You have to realise in a car where the engine doesn’t run at time’s there is no brake power assist as in a conventional car. An electric pump pressurizes the system and in turn can be heard at times if the engine is off. When shutting the car off another pump can be heard transferring coolant into a thermal storage flask ready for the next start up. The AC compressor is driven by electric,The accumulator has a valve that may make a noise if there is air in the system.The ABS can make a noise if activated or if there is air.
Its impossible to know through this forum if you are hearing normal noise or if there is truely a problem, only trying other Prius cars will reveal the truth.
No argument with anything that you have said. I thnk you are undoubtedly much more technically competent about automobiles than I am.
I do hear all of the noises that you describe as being normal and I have no problem with any of those noises except that the pump seems to be pressurizing a lot more often than it did before they replaced the actuator.
The noises that I object to are the ones that were occurring when you depressed the brake pedal and when you released the brake pedal. Some of the more onerous of those noises were taken care of by the second dealer.
It is interesting that you mention getting a thorough explanation of what they did to the car.
Neither of these Toyota dealerships, which, incidentally, share a common owner, seem inclined to give much of an explanation about anything. For example, the second dealership, after keeping the car for four days, put only this comment on the service ticket that the cashier gave to me when I picked up the car:
“Bleed Brake Fluid”
Not another word as to what was done and no other explanation offered even though I was referred to the dealership by Toyota with a case number.
To say the least, communication is a big part of the problem. I did speak personally to the service manager at the first dealership and he insisted that every noise coming out of the braking system was normal.
I have never been able to speak to the service manager at the second dealership despite repeated phone calls. My only conversations at that dealership were with the shop foreman who rode with me and readily agreed that the noises out of the braking system were not normal. He subsequently called me at the end of the first day that they had the car and said that they were having no luck fixing the problem and that they suspected that the technical manuals from Toyota had an error in the instructions about what needed to me done when the actuator had been replaced. He had also commented earlier about the complexity of the Prius and its twenty-two computers.
I’m sure I could expend even more energy and have many more conversations about the Prius but I am, as they say, tired of screwing with the thing. Happily, except for the time I have spent responding to your comments, I have mostly been spending my time on other pursuits as of late and trying to not think too much abut the Prius.
I do appreciate your thoughts and comments. I can tell that you are a “car guy”. I’m sure we would enjoy getting together and talking about classic cars. especially 1940’s & 1950’s American cars. I am a huge fan of 1949-1951 Mercurys.
We could strip down your Prious and combine it into a 50 Merc lead sled Hybrid with anti-lock brakes! Problem is,I don’t think it would ever stop!!
Seriously, my daughter just got into an accident with her 2010 Prious. No fault of the brakes but she has repeatedly complained to the dealer about the brake system on washboard surfaces.Something should come of this soon.
The comment about the pump running more after replacement of the actuator is a good sign there is still air in the system.
More remote possibilities are the accuulator is flat ie no nitrogen gas,or there is a hydraulic leak, or the pump is faulty ie leak back and not pressurizing.
Remember the hydraulic Citroen’s, they were wise enough to incorporate a self bleeding system, maybe toyota should take note if its so difficult on the Prius.
The comment about the service manuals being wrong is interesting cause many years ago while adjusting the cam chains in a Maserati V6 I discovered why the left bank chain had failed on numerous engines. It was down to an error in the service manual.Sometime the service technicians are just drones drawing a paycheck.
I like a good mystery as you can see..so take care and good luck.
I have a feeling that the problems with my Prius would be quickly solved if someone like you were working on it.
I am not much of a mechanic but I am an acute observer of details (52 years in the computer business).
As previously stated, many of the more onerous noises were taken care of by the second Toyota dealer. However, the brakes still aren’t right and it could well be more air in the lines. The pump definitely runs more than it did, but I discussed that, to no avail, with both dealerships.
Anyway, it is a shame. I was a great fan of the Prius and its technology and I loved my Prius. I still love the car, but I am disgusted with the Toyota dealers and with Toyota USA customer service. I’m reluctantly in the process of replacing it with a Ford or Chevy pick-up, leaning in the direction of the Ford because of the Chevy cylinder deactivation feature.
The low tech brakes on my 51 Mercury work great so I wouldn’t want to mess with them.
I don’t have any real complaint about the ABS brakes on my Prius.
I think the ABS part of the Prius braking system works as intended, but I do notice that when the ABS system kicks in, you do sometimes get a momentary “out of control” feeling. I suspect it many have to do with the weight of the car and the placement of the wheels in relation to the wheelbase.
Sorry about your daughter’s accident. I hope she is OK.
That momentary out of control feeling goes with the territory of actually being out of control and will be there with any car light weight or not.
ABS is activated when traction is lost and the tire is slipping on the surface.Abs cycles the braking pressure letting the wheel turn again in pulses enabling the tire to grip again.This controled skid will give the feeling the car is not going to stop at the same rate as the driver is used too for a given amount of pressure on the brake.
These ABS stopping distances are greater than dry
conditions but shorter than a skid without ABS.
Its all down to road conditions,speed,tire tread and drivers timing.By this last item I mean if the driver leaves it too late and stomps the pedal he/she can activate the abs and experience the feeling of not stopping in time.Some owners experiencing this for the first time think the brakes are faulty when in fact its their fault for not observing the road conditions in the first place especially washboard surfaces.
Just an observation on your choice of replacement vehicle…Pick Ups have a very high center of gravity and subject to rollover if a swerve is needed.The lightly loaded rear of a Pick Up provides little traction unless its 4WD.Extremely poor mpg
The footprint of a PU is huge physically and environmentally if only used mainly for passenger transport.You may have issues with the Prius but pick ups have issues as well so beware.
Pick ups are worse in my opinion. The one thing people forget is that anti-locks give you a chance to steer during the event. The only problem is that usually there is no time to think to try to steer.As I said before, I don’t like the feel of anti-locks but it is interesting to try steering with them in a controlled slippery environment.It does work.
I have had the anti-locks kick in on a washboard surface with other vehicles. My daughter has also driven other vehicles with anti-locks but never got the same feeling as with the Prius. I hope Toyota is working on this.
Again, no argument with anything you say.
Everything involves trade-offs.
However, I like pick-ups. I don’t haul much but they are nice to have when you need them. Pick-ups also tend to have lumbar support for both the driver and the passenger which are nice features that both my wife and I like but, unfortunately, are not available on that many regular vehicles.
I drove a Chevy pick-up for almost eight years before trying Toyota. The Chevy pick-up had a few problems, too, but the attitude of the local Chevy dealer was totally opposite that of Toyota. It seemed to me that the Chevy dealer realized that I was the customer and they took time to explain things very carefully and they always fixed the problem even if it took extra time on their part. I wish in many ways that I was still driving my 2000 Silverado, which had some of the most comfortable seats of any vehicle that I have ever owned.
I like the idea of driving a vehicle like a Prius in a common sense effort to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. However, I only drive 12,000 miles per year and, when I finally do retire from working, I will only drive 6,000 miles per year. My wife only drives her car 4,000 miles per year so I don’t think we are consuming more than our fair share of resources. I try to be a very onservative and prudent person so I will do my best to find other ways to help the environment to try to make up for me driving a pick-up.
I’m also a very careful driver (two small fender benders in 58+ years and they were both the fault of others) so I should have a better than even chance safety-wise in the pick-up. Of course, even a pick-up in today’s world is light years safer than the safest of yesterday’s vehicles.
Safer, more reliable, better fuel economy, more power, engines last forever, more comfortable and ONE BIG PAIN to repair yourself! In 40 years I have probably gone to a mechanic a half a dozen times. I open the hood of my daughters Prius and go HUH???
My specialty is electronics and I know enough about it to wish there wasn’t so much of it in our vehicles. Look at what usually fails and is so hard to diagnose. It’s a double edged sword and nothing we can do about it other than pay for it.
There are self diagnostic devices and computer programs one can install on their own PC or laptop.
I previously owned the original Honda Insight(2 seater) and through the owners web site found reasonably priced software enabling me to alter certain parimenters of the cars behavior and charging program plus diagnostics.
There was even a hundred foot cord so I could reach the car in the driveway from my PC.
Electronics can aid in locating the problems and with more personal home computers all thats needed is the software and the inclination to fix it yourself.
Of course I realise this isn’t for everyone but I do take this approach on everything I use or own,
although I do not tinker,if it ain’t broke don’t mess with it.
The alternative is the dealer and his labor rates and the mystery of how knowledgeable they are.
Based on my personal experiences with my Prius, not even the Toyota dealers may have the expertise to fix them once there is a problem.
I’m told that my 2008 Prius has twenty-two (22) different computers. This tells me that the people who work on them had better have both mechanical and computer skills. Even then, once they start changing out parts, your car may never be the same again.
I am frankly amazed at how poorly Toyota and its dealers treat their customers even when the car is still in warranty. I shudder to think how they would be once a Prius was out of warranty and especially how expensive the out of warranty repairs will be. I have a friend with a Toyota Sequoia. At 45,000 miles, the ABS system required repairs and the Toyota dealer presented him with a bill for over $4000.
To further illustrate this point, I received a letter from Toyota yesterday about the HID headlight bulbs in my Prius. I was shocked to find out that up until now the Toyota price to replace a single HID bulb has been $300. According to the letter, they have now decided to reduce the price from $300 per bulb to “only” $150 per bulb, which still seems outrageous to me.
I would never have bought my Prius if I had any inkling that it would be so difficult to work on and that replacement parts, like the HID bulbs, would be so expensive.
Anyway, I guess I should be happy that my Prius developed problems well before it was out of warranty. I will soon be an ex-Prius and ex-Toyota customer, monetarily poorer for the experience, but, hopefully, wiser and smarter for the future.
My advice is to buy a Ford or Chevy that can be worked on by someone other than a dealer. Also, make sure you buy a vehicle that is as simple as possible. As more and more people have bad experiences with high-tech cars, especially hybrids, I predict you will see increased demand for “simpler” cars.
This thread get’s more bazaar by the day. According to true Delta’s car reliability survey…Prius still has among the lowest repair frequencies.
Non-OEM bulbs can be purchased on eBay for $90 per pair.
I googled these lamps and found them from other sources at similar prices and low beams at $18 ea.Complete assemblies minus bulbs at $100 ea.
As a comparison Chevy Silverado OEM fog lights are $315.00.
There are no simple new cars anymore gentlemen and all the American companies are set to introduce hybrids. The Chevy volt will be out in the fall.
Your remark ” bad experiences with high-tech cars, especially hybrids” is very interesting and revealing since the hybrid part of the equation has given the least trouble. This is another example of slagging off a technology without any proof.
My Toyota dealer is A-1, very informative, helpful and I have no complaints so thats the other side of the coin.
There is no doubt that my experience with Toyota is real. I have kept copious notes and have everything very carefully documented in writing including many, many conversations with the dealerships and with Toyota USA.
There is also no doubt that I received a letter yesterday from Toyota addressed to all Prius owners for the 2006 – 2009 model years about HID headlights. The letter plainly says that they have been charging $300 per bulb but that they are now going to charge only $150 per bulb.
I’m very glad that you have a good Toyota dealer. In my opinion, you should consider yourself fortunate. When I recently checked the Better Business report on my Toyota dealer, their Better Business Bureau grade was F for both of their locations.
I think the Prius is a brilliantly engineered car. In fact, I loved the car and have been responsible for several friends buying Priuses.
However, I do not feel very good about my experiences with Toyota USA and its dealers.
Every word that I have written is the verbatim truth. I am one of the more intensely truthful people you will encounter, in the words of my wife, I am a too much of a “Boy Scout”, even at age 73.
So I don’t think it is fair to characterize my truthful remarks about my own personal experiences as “slagging off a technology without any proof”. In my honest opinion and based on my personal experience, anyone who buys a Prius or other high-tech vehicle runs the risk of having an experience similar to mine.
Furthermore, a friend who was a long time service manager at one of the largest Toyota dealerships in the world also told me very recently that he predicts that there will be more and more service issues with these very high tech cars. He said his advice would be to buy a simple four cylinder Camry that almost anyone can work on.
In closing, let me emphasize this point, the bigger issue really isn’t the problem with the Prius, the real issue is how the dealer and Toyota reacted to the problem. What they did made me completely lose faith in them. As they say, you really can’t truly judge a product or a company until there is a real problem. In my humble opinion, it is how they respond when there is a problem that really tells you who and what you are dealing with.
I have no doubt you are genuine and truthful.
The point I was trying to make was you have only had problems with brakes and dealer service which I realize is bad enough.
But you have also made several derogatory remarks against “Hybrids,Toyota,Toyota dealers, High Tech cars that are not directly attributed to your problem and which I have defended.
Now its the cost of Toyota lights which again I pointed out can be industry wide even GM has expensive units.
My whole argument is you shouldn’t condemn “All the above” for all to see just because you have been unlucky with one item and a lousy dealer.
By all means address the brake issue aggressively with Toyota and let that be the end of it but other remarks are unnecessary and show you may have other agendas.
I am curious as to your initial reasons for buying a Prius.
Technology is surpassing ability to economically solve problems with our vehicles. The computer can tell you it is not receiving a proper signal. It can’t tell you if it is the sensor, what’s driving the sensor, or if it is a problem ANYWHERE in the wiring between the sensor and the computer. It takes a well seasoned tech that can think and understand every aspect of the function to be able to troubleshoot this stuff properly.
I’ve done a lot of circuit work over the years and I despise working on automobile electrical systems. You can’t get at anything and if you don’t do it everyday just the routing of the harnesses can bring you to your knees.
I am well removed from the auto industry but I can only hope that the dealers understand that they need highly qualified electronic technicians,not just mechanical techs. There IS a big difference.
I agree with you, my career has been electrical and I have seen in recent years a switch from a mechanical biased automobile to an electronic biased one.
I welcome this but it does as you state require the correct technicians maybe an
electromechanical tech…I say this because the two systems are connected and an understanding of both is preferable.
The next stage will be multiplex systems or fibber optics.
This is overdue for our wiring systems today are not keeping pace.
It only remains to have steer by wire and wheel motors to complete the picture thus eliminating brakes,hydraulics,drive shafts/joints,steeringear,differentials/transmissions,and more if switching to full electric energy.
DGate:Multiplexing and fiber optics would certainly cut down on on wiring. It would however involve more modules at each end but as long as they are reliable who cares. A relatively simple test apparatus could also be available to the backyard mechanic.
Did you ever think (or dream) that if the auto manufactures could do nothing more than standardize some of the computers and modules, that it could be so much cheaper for these repairs? They could still have there own software for some propriety and for functions of the specific vehicle but,if all the hardware was the same the physical cost could be greatly reduced. Not to be cynical but, at that point they would probably charge you $75 for the computer and $900 to download the vehicle’s software.
On your other note; although it is the future, knowing what I know about electronics and its failures I still like my foot hooked directly to the throttle plate!! Good speaking with you
If I had an agenda, I think it would be to try to inform and let others know about my Toyota experience in hopes that the same thing wouldn’t happen to someone else.
I also feel a little guilty about the Edmunds.com review that I wrote about my Prius in March of 2008:
A Stunning Car
Date Posted: 03/03/2008
By: Prius Fan RATING:
DETAILED RATINGS:
Performance: 10 Fun-to-Drive: 10 Build Quality: 10
Comfort: 10 Interior Design: 10 Reliability: 10
Fuel Economy: 10 Exterior Design: 10
Vehicle
2008 Toyota Prius Touring 4dr Hatchback (1.5L 4cyl gas/electric hybrid CVT)
Review
It took me a while to get up the courage to buy a hybrid, since I had initially not been a believer. I now wish I had done it sooner. The Prius has exceeded all of my expectations and is a joy to drive. My buying experience was also pleasant. The fit and finish on the car are outstanding. The ride is very comfortable and exceedingly quiet. If cars had always had Prius-like technology, I truly believe that we would find today’s standard cars to be quite primitive. Also, if more cars had this technology, the USA wouldn’t be dependent on foreign oil sources. This car is practical and just makes good common sense. I think it could fill the needs of 85% of the buying public.
Favorite Features
Ability to cruise at 35 mph on electric motor only, using no gasoline. Dead silence with no motors running and no gas being burned while stopped at a red light. All the tremendous technology, including bluetooth, navigation, backup camera, etc. Easy to manuever and park. I love this car.
Suggested Improvements
All of these would be nice, but the car is wonderful with or without them: automatic head lights, automatic locking of doors when car starts moving, more adjustments on the seats. The truth is this car is near perfection and it is easy to see why 92% of Prius owners are satisfied and happy.
52 out 55 people found this review helpful
Since I can see that 55 people read my Edmunds.com review, I don’t feel good about the possibility that my review might have influenced other people to go out and buy a Prius.
I think my comments above in the Edmunds.com review pretty well explain my thoughts at the time I bought my Prius.
Your two extreme views just show how fickle American consumers have become.
In the beginning all the high tech features were praised. But let one item go faulty on one car in ??, and have trouble with one dealer in ?? and suddenly its down with technology,hybrids,Toyota and everyone should know not to buy this product because “I’m” unhappy with it.
Your Toyota experience is one in 2 million and although it should be addressed is not a reason to discourage those “sitting on the fence” from buying a Prius.I don’t think you are justified in sending this message out considering the above.
What you should do if you were so happy in the beginning is aggressively seek a solution from your agent. Your dealer is a franchise and only as good as its local management. They are the ones you should have a fight with for lack of service. Local negative publicity would have more impact in getting a result from this dealer than going world wide, after all his immediate customer base will be influenced.
As you state and as I suspected your agenda has been to discourage others from the Prius experience even though statistically it would be a pleasant one.
As a fellow car enthuasiast I would like to help you sort the Prius.Please respond with the dealers name and location. Also check out this web site.. http://priuschat.com/forums/
Interesting recall….Wow. It does seem, that as drastic as this is, they are certainly doing the right thing. This will probably put the Prius braking issue on the back burner but I’m sure we’ll hear something soon.
Associated Press released an article today about the Prius braking issue. The article is on the MSN website main page under MSNBC news entitled “Another headache Prius owners complain”. The article is vague about the actual problem but at least we know that Toyota is aware.
i have had a trivial complaint about my 2010 Prius but now I’m wondering if it wasn’t another example, albeit somewhat innocuous, of Toyota “new” approach to selling cars. My complaint: Toyota dumbed down the smart key from 3 doors to 1 door and perhaps purposely hid this fact from those of us who trusted Toyota and didn’t read the fine fine print comparing the various models of the Prius. 3 Dr smart key was standard in my 2004– Toyota now puts it only in their most expensive versions.
We’re halfway there folks! 2010 Prius brake recall.Get this fixed and the cars will be sweeeet.
I would still rather do my repairs with a wrench,not software.
Updated Statement From Toyota Regarding Prius Brake Issue. This after a secret fix was instituted in Japan and revealed in media reports – Ken Zino, editor.
TORRANCE, Calif., February 4, 2010 – Toyota is aware that NHTSA has opened a Preliminary Evaluation centered on owner complaints of a braking issue with the 2010 model year Prius. Toyota will cooperate fully with NHTSA’s investigation.
Some customers have complained of inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady application of brakes on rough or slick road surfaces when the anti-lock brake system (ABS) is activated in an effort to maintain tire traction. The system, in normal operation, engages and disengages rapidly (many times per second) as the control system senses and reacts to tire slippage. A running production change was introduced last month, improving the ABS system’s response time, as well as the system’s overall sensitivity to tire slippage.
This preliminary evaluation addresses owner complaints specific to the 2010 Prius. This condition is not related to either the floor mat entrapment recall or the sticky pedal recall currently in action.
Toyota will continue to evaluate the condition as it relates to owner complaints and will keep NHTSA informed of its progress.
####
In reading many of the braking complaints and from my daughters experience, the surface of a sewer cover is mentioned many times. It must have the perfect washboard surface and frequency to create the condition that drivers are experiencing. I hope Toyota has the sense to specifically use this scenario in their testing. Of course it’s starting to seam like technology is getting ahead of common sense!
Don’t worry, Len. This is just a minor hiccup in a sophisticated new product (this is the first year for the Prius Gen III). If Toyota wasn’t concerned about safety they wouldn’t have provided so many airbags, including one for the driver’s knees. They also wouldn’t have sensors to move the headrests forward when a rear-end collision is detected, and other safety-related technology.
I’ve experienced this brake-floating issue and can reproduce it at will (traffic permitting). Any bump or road condition that causes one or both front wheels to loose contact with the road during regen braking will trigger the transition. I’ve found the best condition to trigger it is a transition between higher pavement to lower. For example, leaving a bridge who’s deck is an inch or so higher than the pavement. (break: I need to bring my grandson to school, back in a moment… There, I’m back. I also took the opportunity to recreate the float again, this time at 20-mph) My favorite bump, there are two, is in a construction area where a cement slab in a utility trench is tilted a bit. Thus, my right wheels can ride up the slope of this “ramp” and when they leave become airborne for a 10th of a second or so. The ramp drop-off is only about 1.5 inches high. The regen braking is turned off instantly, with the friction brakes taking over in a half second or so. The car DOES NOT ACCELERATE! The retarding braking force is just interrupted for a moment. This was proved by a poster over in priuschat.com who instrumented his car with accelerometers and a data recorder. No acceleration!
My other favorite bump is just a bumpy patch over a utility repair. I tried to recreate floating on this bump at lower speeds but was unsuccessful due the fact that wheel/pavement contact wasn’t lost. With this bump the speed has to be high enough, maybe about 25-MPH, for the wheel to bounce.
I’ll grant that the feeling is strange and surprising and needs to be fixed. Your vehicle shouldn’t “surprise” you at any time. But even if Toyota never fixed it I can live with it.
As the recent announcements indicated, this may be repairable by a simple reflash of the hybrid control computer. They just need to decrease the delay between regen dropout and bringing up the friction brakes.
Lewie: You need to take Akio Toyoda for a ride!
As for changing the delay,Nah, I want to get the most charging I can….right into the guy in front of me!!
Toyota Recall statement on 2010 Prius Model recall. This story is still open as far as we are concerned, as the complaints about pre-2010 Prius brakes continue. Go to the top of the site and search latest posts. – Ken Zino, editor.
Toyota Announces Voluntary Recall on 2010 Model Year Prius and 2010 Lexus HS 250h Vehicles to Update ABS Software
Inspection of Power Steering Hose Position on Certain 2010 Camry Vehicles Also Announced Recalls Underscore Toyota’s Commitment to Address All Vehicle Quality and Safety Issues Promptly and Effectively
TORRANCE, Calif., Feb. 9 — Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today announced it will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 133,000 2010 Model Year Prius vehicles and 14,550 Lexus Division 2010 HS 250h vehicles to update software in the vehicle’s anti-lock brake system (ABS). No other Toyota, Lexus, or Scion vehicles are involved in this recall.
The ABS, in normal operation, engages and disengages rapidly (many times per second) as the control system senses and reacts to tire slippage. Some 2010 Model Year Prius and 2010 HS 250h owners have reported experiencing inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady application of brakes on rough or slick road surfaces when the ABS is activated in an effort to maintain tire traction.
Toyota has responded to owner concerns with a running production change for 2010 Prius that was introduced last month, improving the ABS response time, as well as the system’s overall sensitivity to tire slippage. The production change for the HS 250h is planned for later this month.
“We’re committed to doing everything we can – as fast as we can – to restore consumer trust in Toyota, and these recalls are part of this effort,” said Jim Lentz, President and Chief Operating Officer, Toyota Motor Sales. “We regret the inconvenience this recall will cause to Prius and HS 250h owners, and will do our best with the support of our dealers to make sure that it is conducted in the most trouble-free manner possible.”
Mr. Lentz continued: “As part of the quality improvement program announced by Toyota President Akio Toyoda last week, our company is undertaking a top to bottom review to ensure that our vehicles meet our own high standards of safety and reliability, now and for the future. We are taking steps to implement more stringent quality control across the company, to investigate customer complaints more aggressively and to respond more quickly to any safety issues we identify.”
The recall will allow Toyota dealers to perform the software update on 2010 Prius vehicles sold prior to this running production change. Only Prius vehicles produced since May 2009 and all HS 250h vehicles are subject to this recall. First- and second-generation Prius vehicles use a different ABS and are not involved in this campaign.
The ABS on the Lexus HS 250h is similar in design to the Prius. The software adjustment planned for HS 250h production and dealer modification is being finalized and will be announced very soon.
Toyota will begin mailing letters to Prius owners included in this recall next week and HS 250h owners within the next few weeks, to let them know when to bring their vehicles into a dealership. Owners will only receive a letter if their vehicle is involved in the recall.
Separately, Toyota will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 7,300 early production – 2010 Model Year Camry vehicles equipped with the 4 cylinder engine to inspect for a power steering hose that may be in contact with a front brake tube. This contact could lead to a hole in the brake tube and cause a brake fluid leak, increased brake pedal stroke and greater vehicle stopping distance.
Owners of the involved 2010 Camry vehicles will be notified by mail starting in the middle of February.
Detailed information about these recalls is available to customers at http://www.toyota.com/recall and at the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 1-800-331-4331, or the Lexus Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-255-3987.
This is great news. It is unfortunate that all of these issues should hit at once.
I worked with Japanese electronic manufacturers for years. They would never be forthcoming with problems but they always listened, studied the issue, and corrected the problem. They typically are very private concerning problems in general. It has a lot to do with pride in their culture. Although it may have gone too far in this case, I’m sure these issues will get straightened out.
Any apology from the industry should be taken seriously. Again, pride plays a big roll in coming out with any information that can be embarrassing. We may perceive this as a cover up but,that is what our culture and media is famous for doing.
In the long run I’m willing to bet that they will learn from this embarrassment.
Check out the fix for the over sensitive Prius ABS system causing all the fuss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ONsvlgN4E
I wonder how many other makes might have this same characteristic?
Click click done. I did get a kick out of the music. The publicity of the Prius might expose more issues of this type in the marketplace. With all of the electronic controls,it’s very difficult to predict every scenario that can occur.When you add the fact that in a failure of the control it can literally give it a mind of its own, stuff like this is going to happen. I still wouldn’t, and my daughter doesn’t, feel good about pressing the brake and having a lapse in the system.
If you think about it, all the fuss is made worse by the fact that this is not a normal problem that we’re used to dealing with in automobiles. Cell phone use, drunk drivers,and speeding do a hell of a lot more damage than the Prius brakes can ever do but, after all of those dangerous thing we do without thought, you still expect a car to stop when you hit the brakes.
This is a long overdue response to dgate from January 23.
Sorry, but I have been under the weather. Happily, though, I am finally feeling better.
Fickle, I think, is the wrong word to describe my attitude with regard to Toyota and the Prius. Disgusted and unhappy would better words.
I loved the Prius at first but I have now learned better. I may be a slow learner but I am capable of learning.
I tried my very best to work with the dealership where I bought my car. I also spent a great deal of time on the phone with Toyota national customer service. However, despite my best efforts, I was unsuccessful at getting my Prius problems resolved. I had moderate success at getting the more onerous noises stopped by the sister dealership with the same ownership. However, they have pronounced the remaining sounds made by my Prius as being completely normal. It is better than it was but still isn’t the way it should be (in my opinion).
Anyway, after seven trips in less than six weeks to the two dealerships, I have given up. At age 73, I have better things to do than to spend my valuable time screwing around with a car.
I sold my Prius to a wholesaler today and he is picking it up tomorrow. My new vehicle is a like new 2006 Chevy Silverado (11000 miles). It is decidedly lower tech than the Prius, but something I can get worked on almost anywhere. Interestingly, though, at least my Silverado does have automatic head lights and automatic door locking which are nice features that the high tech Prius didn’t have. (I didn’t buy a new Silverado because I am somewhat fearful of cylinder deactivation.)
It means a lot to me to not be a captive of Toyota any longer even if I ended up getting only $15,000 for a pristine Touring edition that I paid more than $27000 for less than two years and 26,000 miles ago. I might have gotten more if I had tried to sell the Prius myself, but I could not, in good conscience, bring myself to pass it off on another poor soul.
P.S. The Toyota dealership that you asked me to name has been named before on Prius Chat as not a very good place to go so there is no need for me to mention them again.
My 2005 Toyota Prius had the same braking problems that are being reported for the 2010 models. Every time I would hit a pothole or rough road surface, the brakes would stop working for a second or two and the car would seem to accelerate. It was very annoying during my 4 1/2 years of ownership. Although it happened dozens of times, I only came close to hitting another car only once (which is one time too many). I sold my Prius in January and bought a new non Toyota car (with outstanding brakes).
No your no longer a Toyota captive but a GM captive and I would start this relationship by checking to see if your “truck” has had all its recalls attended too.
Transmission,steering,wheels/hubs,ac/heater,drive train,suspension,powersteering hose,lights, interior safety foam,timing chain,and most important relating to fires the engine fuel rail damper and windshield wash heaters.
Hate to rain on your parade but the reality is all manufacturers have issues,even the tried and true simply engineered ones.
Wishing you all the best.
D,
Your comments carry a bite that suggests you are a strong Toyota supporter, but I would suggest that when you pull back from any bias, pro or con, you have a point all car buyers need to recognize. ALL manufacturers face quality problems, at one point or another. All vehicles have their quirks, though some are modest to minimal. Every maker will discover that owners have filed grievances, whether directly with the company or with NHTSA. What’s compelling, now, with all the headlines surrounding Toyota, is that the Japanese maker has had more troubles than we realized. That, in turn, seems to be breaking the spell, as it were, leading once-loyal owners who couldn’t believe they had problems with their Toyotas to suddenly speak out. I have had several conversations lately with such folks, including a dear friend, in Chicago, who picked us up for dinner in his ’08 Prius, and when asked, said he didn’t have any problems at all with the car. When we came outside and discovered one of his HID headlights out — it would alternatively cae back on and go back off whenever the car was restarted — I mentioned that was a known “issue,” and one that narrowly avoided going to recall level. That suddenly triggered a flood of complaints that Bob wasn’t willing to discuss earlier.
Again, while I may be seen as picking on Toyota, the fact is that we’re just discovering this maker is mortal. Now it must demonstrate it can resolve its current problems.
In the past, the Detroit makers did a poor job both at dealing with quality and handling consumers when problems appeared. The data show the better makers, Ford in particular, have made major improvements. Going forward, this could determine who leads and who fails.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
I am not a Toyota supporter per se but a technology supporter.
I understand cars and revel in advanced ones which may explain my defending the Prius. As regards to the present situation smart buyers will recognise this as the ideal time to buy Toyotas since they (Toyota) will be keen to please both in price quality and backup. Its imperative they do so to regain lost ground. Childish attitudes of others will mean they abandon their cars at a loss to go elsewhere into the unknown.
D,
Not an entirely bad point though, to be blunt, Toyota needs to prove that 1) It doesn’t have more “surprises” in store; 2) That it will, indeed, take care of customers (more in a moment); and 3) It isn’t proving, even more, that it is just another maker that will, when in trouble, flood the market with cash to get buyers to ignore its problems. That’s precisely what the domestics tried, for years, until they finally began realizing that massive incentives were a stop-gap, at best, and at worst, the door to disaster. What concerns me is that I continue to hear Toyota owners talk about how frustrating it is to work with the company’s dealers who, traditionally, have been some of the industry’s weakest when it comes to customer satisfaction. (See the JDPA sales satisfaction index, among others.) You’ll note some of the comments on this site, such as the chain from Robert Becker, a 2010 Prius owner and one of the first to alert us about the hybrid’s braking problems. He has tried to get a fix since last July, shortly after buying the car. Yet, even after Toyota confirmed the brake problem announced plans for a recall, his dealer was not only denying there was an issue, but telling Becker they had never heard any of their customers complain. All they needed to do was look into his service file to find that wasn’t true. Now, there ARE some great Toyota dealers, as other readers of TheDetroitBureau.com have expressed. But unless the dealer body truly takes a great leap foward…in some ways, making even more progress than Toyota itself…the current crisis will simply convince current owners, such as David Greenburg, to switch to another brand.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Maybe experience with the domestic market has made you sceptical that Toyota will emulate it, but you must surely realize its a different culture we are dealing with. Of course one could assume they are playing our game because its their biggest market but that’s not the case since its world wide. This is a culture that traditionally failure meant someone’s head literally so I don’t think it was intentional. I do wonder since the dealers are American if there isn’t a different mentality towards customer complaints which the Japanese on a Dailey basis may have no control of.
Complacency may have crept into some dealerships because of Toyotas success through the years.
I still find your’s and others remarks offensive in describing the situation, such as “Toyota owners are unhappy with”…this may be true but a more acceptable and less dramatic (for your profession) statement should be, Some or a few Toyota owners are unhappy. I own a Prius (my first Toyota) and I, like the majority of others are not unhappy with it!
Our own society looks favourably on success but kicks or shuns failure, maybe that’s what is being revealed in all this media attention. I can’t believe all complaints are legitimate, human nature will reveal all sorts of sob stories (some driven by greed),rumors etc etc that add fuel to the fire and the media revel in this… its what pays the wages.
The bottom line is there are a few rogue dealers, a few minor problems, a few unhappy owners, even fewer unhappy ex owners.Welcome to life!
But as a result of unprecedented media attention there are now a lot of confused and doubtful potential owners, millions upon millions who were originally sceptical of hybrid technology are now convinced its bad even though its not related to the problems.
I’m sure you feel justified in being the publics watchdog and playing a part in getting Toyota’s attention but look at all the collaterial damage.
Meanwhile Toyota has woken from this nightmare to tackle the problem and the media is still flogging away. Its no use speculating on a result, we can’t now, and never have been able to predict the future.
D:
In the past, I might have been more willing to agree with you regarding your contentions about the Japanese “culture” and how a company like Toyota could be expected to respond, but if you look at a number of situations, in recent years, that has proven to be more a Western fantasy than a Japanese reality. I’ll keep this note short but the situation at Mitsubishi was one example of hat I’m talking about, as was the initial response of Bridgestone to the tire problems with Explorer. To their credit, B’stone changed their stance and policies and ultimately handled the crisis with aplomb, but a very strong argument can be made that this evolution was driven by new U.S. management. As for Toyota, there were some telling comments made by Transpo Sec. LaHood, recently, emphasizing that American management got the issues at hand but that the problem with getting the accelerator pedal recall authorized was Japanese intransigence. My own understand of the Prius issue supports this strongly, and my own sources suggest it is Japan, not the U.S. that is not accepting and adapting. Intriguing is the way corp. management has allowed the image to foster (or fester) of the current problems being US-based, whether the result of 1) American suppliers, like CTS, 2) bad American media who want to slam the Japanese; 3) American politicians (same complaint). The Prius brake issue, in particular, was clearly not, in any way, an American issue. But I think management would like to believe it is, as well.
Recall the comments Akio Toyoda made, barely a year ago, about just how screwed up Toyota is. He referred to the 5 stages of corp. life and noted Toyota was already in stage 4, which is the point at which a company begins its decline; and he made it clear, at the time, that if something didn’t happen soon, Toyota would fail. This is CEO Toyoda, not me, speaking. Interestingly, after his comments were (well) publicized, a variety of corp. suits tried to minimize and spin his words. Toyoda then said he meant precisely what he said and that his comments shouldn’t be minimized.
Sadly, when the CEO has had opportunities, in recent months, to truly get out front, he has been hiding or, more benignly, simply not putting himself out there as he should have. This is a failure-of-leadership position that will almost certainly be a key point in the eventual and inevitable studies of the Toyota crisis.
As to your point about owners being unhappy, I am not implying that a majority of owners have suddenly become unhappy with their vehicles, but a reasonable subset have either become unhappy with Toyota and/or its products, or are raising serious concerns. That is especially significant, and something I am seeing with surprising frequency. My friend Bob, in Chicago, a once-dedicated Prius owner, is a great example. He couldn’t find a thing wrong to speak of…until he realized that his ’08 is having the well-reported headlight failure problem. And then, only when told this is a known problem, did he suddenly recall a spate of other problems with his Prius. Once people begin to realize Toyota is not perfect, nor is its products, they are more open to raise questions about their own experiences.
AND…here’s where dealers come in. Bob’s attempt to get the headlight issue resolved led him to talk with two dealers in the north suburbs of Chicago, neither of which are doing the right thing. While I cannot speak for him, I don’t think his mindset is anywhere near what it was just a few weeks ago. Nor do I think this is an unusual situation.
You are, unfortunately, quite wrong to try to dismiss such problems as the result of a few “rogue dealers” and “a few minor problems.” The data strongly show Toyota has a serious weakness on the dealer front. In fact, you can search the web and likely find several articles I wrote as much as a decade ago about this problem…including at least two quoting Don Esmond, one of the top TMS executives, very candidly acknowledging that consumer/dealer relations are one of the biggest problems for Toyota.
Bottom line is that when you have a crisis…or numerous overlapping crises…how the dealer handles a customer may do more to determine the long-term view of the company than almost anything else. I would finish by stressing — repeating — that there are many fine Toyota dealers but a disproportionate share that aren’t up to industry par. And, when you add in everything else, that could be a critical problem for the maker going forward.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Although my experience with the Japanese culture in business was always professional in every regard, I was in the electronics industry and it was a few years back. I guess I’m just naive in thinking that the ridiculously competitive market hasn’t caught up with Japanese business ethics.
It was disappointing to hear, this morning, of more problems with Toyota going back further.It sounds like a long road to recovery.
I have to trust your comments on this subject matter because you are involved in the industry on a daily basis. I only became involved with these issues when my daughter bought a 2010 Prius and began to complain about the brakes.
Technology is to blame for a lot of these problems. Our appetite for bell and whistles is never satisfied. It’s one thing to strive for better fuel consumption but we have made our automobiles so complicated that we’re unable to understand what can go wrong when this stuff goes bad. I used to turn on my headlights. Just a switch and a bulb.The car didn’t need a computer, five relays, six sensors, and software to get the fricken bulb lit. If I was bored on a trip with my parents, I didn’t have television and computer games in the headrest. I was given a deck of card and told to shut up!!
Everything is relative,I can remember an elderly neighbor complaining about hydraulic brakes over mechanical brakes.The automobile has always evolved and where you may be comfortable with a certain point in its evolution others have even questioned that level of technology.
Look on the positive side we can simply download a program to alter todays car, Its a shame Toyota did’nt catch this with the first complaint,it would have gone virtually unreported. Look at the technology in modern aircraft our cars are just catching up.
Good morning D: I know, but Ive worked so long with electronics that I’m painfully aware of its failures. I’ve also hired and worked with electronic techs of all aptitudes.I’m hoping the dealers of all makes of automobiles understand the value of well trained electronic tech and compensate them accordingly. Like it or not, this is the future. We have to make the investment in our techs like the airline industry has done.
A thorough understanding of the systems we have designed is essential. These systems also have to be of decent quality because there is no room in the cost of a car for control redundancy.
It’s tiring. I’m glad I’m not an automotive engineer.
Just a little item of interest a neighbor of mine took his two Toyotas in for their recall Saturday and discovered they had sold twenty three new ones in the last month.
So it seems owners while waiting have cruised the showroom and not been “put off” by recent events,at least with this dealer.
People can be pissed at Toyota but, how the dealer handles this is the most important. How many bad situations in your life have you turned into lasting relationships because of good caring services. We’re not driving the cars to Japan for service. How a dealer handles problems makes or breaks his sales. People just need to know you care even if you don’t have an immediate answer. You have to keep your customer up to date. Quick phone calls can do wonders and stop people from jumping ship. It’s not hard.
DGate; There is a interesting article today on MSN associated press about electronics and the Prius. Although it may be the authors opinion, I am in agreement,as you know, about electronics controlling throttle and brakes.
As we know; static, load glitches, and just software can make a circuit unreliable. When it is the only control over something as important as throttle and braking, I still am uncomfortable.
I cant see where eliminating one cable is going to reduce cost, make the car heavier, or save the planet by reducing fuel consumption. I CAN see how a servo motor can be miss-controlled and send you airborne.
As you can tell,I keep going back and forth on the subject. I’m not opposed to technology but i think somethings still need human control. Of course human control needs some reliability and that might be harder to get than reliable electronics !
My first car with an electronic drive by wire throttle was in 1999, a Smart. I do not recall any problems through the years with the Smart car. My second was a 2001 Vauxhall Agila UK spec which failed on my test ride home to show my wife.Luckily I lived only five miles from the dealer and was able to drive back rather slowly in the default mode of idle.
I assume you realize some or most modern large aircraft are “fully controlled” with fly by wire.
Of course one could argue that aircraft are rigorously maintained but I doubt that considering the turn-a-round times and different pilots and ground crews attending them.I’ve flown the atlantic many many times and noticed engine vibration, extra noisey hydraulic servo’s, and horrible brake noise which was not normal.Cars are simpler and ten years of this type of electronic control has proven it works.
If we are to have anti skid,anti wheel spin,anti this and anti that, the only way it can be accomplished is through the computer with overide control.
When EVs or the Volt are out there how do you think they will be controlled by a throttle cable? Accelerator linkage and cables have never been fool proof we just didn’t have the media coverage in the past.If people are so damned concerned over safety I would first suggest they get off their cell phones! Who knows maybe the signals are screwing up the electronics as on aircraft.
Len, DGate,
John Day’s article for us:
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/02/electronics-meltdown/
…gets into the issues of why electronic problems may be more apparent with some makers than others.
Intriguingly, some manufacturers, like BMW, have considered it critical to control development and integration of at least certain essential electronic systems precisely to ensure they can prevent the problems alleged against Toyota.
Am I convinced there are deadly electronic glitches on Toyota vehicles? Not yet, but it’s highly worrisome. And, as I keep saying, D, I do NOT believe that Toyota is just being spotlighted unfairly, right now.
BTW, even if we ignore for the moment the issue of unintended acceleration, Toyota has had electronic problems. They replaced controllers, a few years back on, if I recall, ’06 Matrix and Corolla models. And the replacement systems now seem to be behind the unexpected stalling problem those vehicles seem to have,
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Paul; Thanks for the article. I do have a question. You are obviously more in tune with the auto industry than most. Have you seen any other manufacturers having electronic issues that have been exposed courtesy of the media attention with Toyota? Sometimes it just takes all of the hype for people to come forward and say “yeah, my non-Toyota has done something similar but I thought it was me”.
It would be nice to know that the auto industry is as zealous in their pursuit of safety as is the airline industry, but I somehow doubt it. Price competition,yearly model changes,and consumer fickleness can’t give these guys a chance to think. The airline industry also has it’s competitive business climate but, when 300 people die in one collision it has much more impact than one or two people dieing in a car crash. Sad but true.
In certain regards I wish the auto industry would stop trying to compensate for poor driving habits with complicated electronic systems.It’s one thing for the driver to be an idiot but another thing for the car to be idiot. Most accidents don’t need the cars brains to prevent them.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor of air bags, crumple zones, emergency monitoring and all. Cars ARE a hell of a lot safer than they used to be but drivers seem dumber than ever!
Hi, Len,
It’s hard to find a manufacturer that hasn’t had some complaints against it for “unintended acceleration” issues, and for problems with electronics. But a number of efforts aimed at comparing the various companies keep coming up with the same conclusion: the numbers are heavily lopsided when it comes to complaint involving Toyota. A particularly intriguing study was conducted by Consumers Union and focused on the period before the whole acceleration issue exploded, if I recall, all of 2008. The results were damning, though, of course complaints are not the same as proof, I must stress,
It’s interesting that you suggest the industry should be as zealous as the airline industry in pursuing safety, then suggest the industry should be allowed to go back to the basic cars of the past, with little protection. The reality is that the latter won’t happen, but neither will the former. And, yes, cost is clearly an issue, both for the industry and for consumers. We all saw the document leaked from Toyota suggesting they celebrated beating back an earlier recall, saving $100 million in the process. Now, however, the cost will be mind-boggling, so making sure the potential cost of non-compliance is unacceptable has to be a part of any regulatory strategy. On the other hand, can you imagine if we required the triple-redundant systems on a commercial jet? Can you imagine a $250,000 Ford Focus or Nissan Versa?
Ironically, I am doing a story for a freelance client about the issue of distracted driving and one of the questions I raise is the concern that systems like Blind Spot Detection and radar Cruise/Auto Braking systems could actually lead to drivers being less involved than ever, leading to more, rather than less accidents. It’s significant to note that when Volvo developed City Safety, which is designed specifically to deal with distracted driving in low-speed urban situations, the maker purposely chose to ensure that the emergency braking process would be abrupt to the point that no one would consciously want to rely on the system except in emergencies.
Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com
Len you hit the nail on the head with that last remark. We may just have to accept that lowering the death rate is as good as we can expect.
Before all the electronics that try to compensate for our mistakes we had a dismal record for safety. The most powerful computer on the planet (our brain) couldn’t through its multiple linkages (arms and legs)operate the car without having accidents.Why should we then expect perfection of something we create?
Len you hit the nail on the head with that last remark. We may just have to accept that lowering the death rate is as good as we can expect.
Before all the electronics that try to compensate for our mistakes we had a dismal record for safety. The most powerful computer on the planet (our brain) couldn’t through its multiple linkages (arms and legs)operate the car without having accidents.Why should we then expect absolute perfection of something we create?